Interview with the Author: The Advice Trap with Michael Bungay Stanier

Often the easiest and quickest thing to do is to give some your advice. However, there is something called “the advice trap” that keeps people from growing in their role. If they fail to grow, you are limited on the impact a person can make to the growth of the organization. My guest today is the best-selling author, Michael Bungay Stainer. His new book is “The Advice Trap.” Tune in today to get tools to avoid the advice trap in your journey as a leader.

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Michael Bungay Stanier: The Transcript

Target Audience: Michael is the Founder of Box of Crayons. He is the author of the best-selling book *The Coaching Habit* He was a Rhodes Scholar and in 2019 was named the #1 thought leader in coaching. Before founding Box of Crayons, Michael held senior positions in the corporate, consultancy and agency worlds He has lived and worked in Australia, the UK, the US, and Canada. Michael has an M Phil from Oxford, a law degree and a BA with highest honors from the Australian National University.

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Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.

Michael Bungay Stanier
The way your company grows fast is you set your people free. You allow them to be the best version of themselves and say, Look, I want all you can give me, I want, I hired you to be smart and brilliant and make a difference. Like, go do that. If you set up a place where people become dependent on you, because you have this advice, giving habit, everything slows down. Everything fails to scale. But everybody’s comfortable because you feel pretty good about it. Because even though you’re offering up slightly crappy advice to solve the wrong problem, you’re like, Look, I’m the smart person here. I’m the boss. I’m adding value clearly. No, I’m in control. I get I get my ego stroked. I don’t I know what’s happening. And they go, this is awesome. We’ve just got this dude doing our work for us. And I don’t have to take responsibility. I don’t I don’t have to come up with the ideas. I’ve trained my boss to be the person who fixes the stuff and takes home, the anxiety and the worry and worry responsibility of trying to get this stuff sorted.

Intro [1:02]
Welcome to Growth Think Tank. This is the one and only place where you will get insight from the founders and the CEOs of the fastest-growing privately held companies. I am the host. My name is Gene Hammett. I hope leaders and their teams navigate the defining moments of their growth. Are you ready to grow?

Gene Hammett [1:20]
Getting your employees to do the work? Having a performance-driven organization is probably important to you as a leader. But let me ask you this question. How important is developing the people around you? How important is developing their skill sets, developing their critical thinking, developing their confidence and courage? I claim that as a leader, you should be putting as much effort into the development of the people as you do into the performance of the organization. Now I say that because I’ve been talking to founders, CEOs just like you that want to grow their companies fast. And those companies that are growing fast, really do focus on growing their people, today we have a special guest. He is the author of the coaching habit and the new book, The advice trap holding it up here if you’re watching on video. His name is Michael Bungay Stanier. And he is just a great way to look at how you should be leading with a coaching like style. Be more coach like being curious. Some of the things we talked about today is the principles of coaching, like being lazy. And also be often we’ll explain what those mean inside the interview. But this interview with Michael is really something you don’t want to miss if you want to be a more effective leader if you want to develop the people around you so that they have the confidence and courage to carry the business beyond where you have taken into this far. Here’s the interview with Michael.

Commercial [2:49]
Before we dive into the interview, I wanted to remind you that you can actually get a tool that I’ve been working with clients with for the last couple of years I’ve refined this tool this gone through a series iterations. Now we have it completely automated, you can actually go online and fill out the leadership quiz. To get the leadership quiz. Just go to That’s pretty easy, right? What you will get when you do that is you will answer a few questions, you will see where you rate based on the core principles of fast-growth companies. If you’re ready to grow your company or you want to see where you are, then make sure you go to inside it, you will get insight to where you are, understand where you want to improve. And you will get them mapped into the 10 areas that our most specific to fast-growth companies. Again, go to the leadership quiz calm and you can get that right now.

Gene Hammett [3:42]
Michael, how are you doing?

Michael Bungay Stanier [3:44]
I’m really great. Thank you for having me on the show. I’m flattered to being here.

Gene Hammett [3:49]
Well, I’m excited to have you when the email came in, I was really I’ve already recommended your book the coaching habit a number of times to clients and others that want to increase their capacity. to coach. So thank you for that first.

Michael Bungay Stanier [4:03]
Yeah, my pleasure. You know, The Coaching Habit book, which is the one you’ve been kindly recommending and talking about, it has been this fee norm that is thrilled me to bet, not least because it is the side story I tried three years to get it published, got it turned down by publishers and Indian self-published. So the fact that it’s been quite as successful as it is, is even sweeter as a result.

Gene Hammett [4:27]
Well, I can appreciate that. And now we’re here to talk about the Companion book, The Advice Trap, a great name again. I always ask every author Why did this book have to be written? Because we know writing is not easy?

Michael Bungay Stanier [4:42]
No, it’s terrible. I mean, anybody who’s listening who’s going I should write a book someday call up Jean and call on Michael. And what’s it like writing a book? It’s miserable. I mean, you have this good idea. And then you write a first draft and the first draft is terrible. Always. You’re like, oh, I can’t translate it and then you write a second draft. And even worse, by the time you’re on the upswing, you hate yourself and you hate the idea and you hate the book. So you want to be really clear about why you’d want to write a book. And here’s why.

Michael Bungay Stanier [5:12]
So the Coaching Habit takes us three-quarters of a million copies sold, far exceeded all my expectations. And part of what’s brilliant about it for me as the author is I get on a daily basis pretty much emails from people go, I love your book is changing the way I lead has changed the way I relate to my kids and my spouse, and my peers and my boss and my team. It’s wonderful. And I’m like, that’s awesome. Consider my ego well stroked. There are also people who don’t write to me but who I think look at the book and they go, it’s a good read. I quite enjoyed it. You know, you’re funny at times, kinda. But I’m having shifted the way that I lead, I still tend to leap in and lead with advice and tell people what to do and I do it for good. reasons I’m trying to be helpful. And I’m trying to speed things along, and I’m trying to make sure that you know, wheels don’t fall off. But this idea of shifting my behavior so that I can stay curious a little bit longer. You know, the seven questions you give me in the coaching habit, they’re not enough. And I’m like, you know, that’s true.

Michael Bungay Stanier [6:19]
For some of us, we get this idea of the power of being coached, like being curious and we’re like, great, I’ve got good questions. now. I’ll incorporate that into why I show up. Other people are like, I don’t get it. Okay, so why is it so hard to shift our behavior when there’s so much good research that says, look, the way of the future the way of leading now is enhanced and more effective if you if it blends coach like being more coach-like as part of it? And the heart of this book is all right, let’s roll up our sleeves and get down to what’s the behavior change required to be more coach-like and The metaphor that is central to the book is, you gotta learn how to tame your advice monster. Because we all have this advice, monsters. And honestly, knowing that founders and CEOs are listening to this show, you’re all worse than most. Because you’ve got to where you are by being an entrepreneur by being courageous enough to make a decision by leading, and you spent a lifetime being rewarded both in terms of money and status and ego-stroking by being the guy or the gal with the answer. And your advice monster is, is loud and strong and present. And you may have the best of intentions to show up in a generous, surest way of leading, but your advice was to keep sabotaging those conversations. And that’s why I’ve written this new book.

Gene Hammett [7:50]
I love that idea. Because, you know, even as a coach myself working with leaders, I still have to stop myself from getting The answer, and really, you know, I forget about how I’m supposed to stay curious. So when I looked at this book, it’s like, How do you stay curious longer? So let’s talk just a little bit for a second on why should we be curious as leaders?

Michael Bungay Stanier [8:17]
Yeah. Well, the first thing just to put on the table and make really explicit for people is I’m in no way saying, never give advice, because clearly that would be ridiculous. I mean, the advice is just part of civilization part of human interaction. I am saying that the problem is not advice. The problem is when giving advice is your default response. It’s you it’s your habit. And when that’s the case, there are three ways that advice given goes badly, badly wrong. So let me run through the three of them. The first is this. Most of the time you’re trying to solve the wrong problem, because you get seduced into thinking that the first challenge that gets put on the table that shows up is the real challenge and it almost never If somebody’s best guess, an early hypothesis, a rough articulation, but almost never is the first challenge the real challenge. But even if somehow miraculously, you and the other person have got this perfectly crafted problem statement in here, it’s definitely the real challenge and the hard thing that needs to be looked at.

Michael Bungay Stanier [9:20]
The second issue around why advice-giving clinics can go bad is actually your advice is not nearly as good as you think it is. And if you’re listening to this podcast, Regina mean, you’re like going, but Michael, you haven’t met me and you need to understand my advice is miraculously awesome all the time. Well, then there is 1000 Ted videos on cognitive biases out there that you should take a look at, which will show you just how badly wrong we get advice most of the time, particularly if you’re a person who believes that you give good advice. So that’s the opening salvo is wishes, okay, you’re solving the wrong problem and you’re offering up some Slightly crappy advice to solve the wrong problem. So that’s, that’s already an issue, right? Because it’s wasting time and money and resources on people’s lives. But there’s a third reason why advice-giving goes wrong. And it’s this. And this cuts both ways.

Gene Hammett [10:16]
The first is if you if you’re on the receiving end of somebody’s advice monster if somebody keeps giving you advice all the time, you’re getting the clear message that you can’t figure this out yourself. Your job is just to take orders. It’s not to actually deploy your own brain and get stuff done. Because you’re not smart enough, fast enough, experienced enough moral enough, clever enough, you’re just not enough to get it done. So that’s diminishing for that person. But if you’re on the other side of the conversation, and you haven’t advised once during, you know, I put good money that everybody listening here has an advice monster. Well, you know, put aside the fact that you’re disempowering everybody around you. Put aside the fact that you become a bottleneck in your own organization that you are leading. The added responsibility of going I have to have all the answers I have to save the day I have to rescue the people is exhausting. And it’s frustrating and it’s inefficient. And it’s absolutely not scalable. Apart from that, you’re awesome.

Gene Hammett [11:19]
I love that. You know, I liked the part you talked about disempowering. One of the big things behind my research, Michael, and I know you’re not that familiar with it, but talking to hundreds of founders and CEOs from the Inc 5000. They want to have an organization where people feel like owners, right, this sense of ownership means they feel empowered. It means there’s a sense of transparency and trust that goes on, but they’re included. And when you give advice, you’re not including someone else’s thoughts and opinions and giving them any credit for that. And so what you’re saying is kind of saying it differently. They keep coming back for the answers from you, and not expecting them to come up with the answers.

Michael Bungay Stanier [12:07]
And the thing is, this can feel kind of comfortable on both sides. Because I mean, you are a coach and a thought leader to people who lead fast-growing companies. And you know, as everybody listening does, which is like the way your company grows fast is you set your people free, you allow them to be the best version of themselves and say, Look, I want, I want all you can give me I want I hired you to be smart and brilliant and make a difference. So, go do that. If you set up a place where people become dependent on you because you have this advice-giving habit, everything slows down. Everything fails to scale, but everybody’s comfortable because you feel pretty good about it. Because even though you’re offering up slightly crappy advice to solve the wrong problem, you’re like, Look, I’m the smart person here and the boss. adding value clearly, no, I’m in control. I get my ego stroked, I don’t I know what’s happening. And they go, this is awesome. We’ve got this dude doing our work for us. And I don’t have to take responsibility. I don’t, I don’t have to come up with the ideas. I’ve trained my boss to be the person who fixes the stuff and take home, the anxiety and the worry and the responsibility of trying to get this stuff sorted. So it can become the kind of corrosively collusive colluding relationship where we’re like, okay, we both feel stressed, but we’re both kinds of comfortable and our stress around.

Commercial [13:37]
Hold on, Michael just talked about setting people free. As a leader, your job is not to control them, but to set them free. What I mean by that is you want to empower them to share their opinions, to think for themselves to make decisions, when they fail to share that with you and figure out a new path forward, take the learning and keep moving over and over Have the grit to do that. And you as a leader, if you develop them, you can set them free. The back to Michael.

Gene Hammett [14:08]
When I think about this coaching sense inside of leadership today, I do feel like it’s evolving quicker than what people think because our technology is evolving the change and adaptation. You know, you have even things like today. One of the big conversations is how do we handle Coronavirus in our organization? Right? We didn’t even prepare for that a month ago, right? And now we’re looking at things differently and making big decisions because of this. Sometimes losing money in that case, but the coaching way of doing this leadership is such an important part of being a leader, but I find one of the biggest excuses is, but it’s just so much easier to tell them what to do.

Michael Bungay Stanier [14:51]
Okay. Yeah. So, you know, I founded a company so I’m an entrepreneur like, I’m a fast I’m a leader of a fast-growing company so I’m amongst my peers as I speak about this and we’ve trained north of 200,000 managers and leaders now around how to be more coach-like and we’ve learned that there are five standard ways of resisting being more coach-like so maybe it’s helpful if I can just speak goes out loud to everybody on the other side of the microphone here knows that I know what you’re going through. Your first thing people go when you go somebody like Jean shows up and goes no coaching, you should think about it.

Michael Bungay Stanier [15:30]
The first thing people go is I don’t have time for that. Hey, I am we are a fast-growing company. Do you know what that means? I’ve got no time for anything. I am stretched from dawn to dusk. And I’ve kind of I’ve had coach’s dream might be one of them. And I and I see how long a coaching conversation takes it’s 30 minutes, it’s an hour. Who has time for that? And the answer is, nobody does. In fact, here’s the key insight. If you can’t coach somebody in 10 minutes or less, you do not have time to coach them. People go Okay, well, that’s interesting, Michael. But here’s the second resistance. I still, I still do not have time to coach people because, honestly, even if I could coach in 10 minutes or less, I don’t have the capacity to add coaching to everything else I’m already trying to do. I’m trying to be strategic. I’m trying to do the Blue Ocean Strategy. I’m trying to launch new pieces. I’m trying to understand social media, really. I’m trying to deal with Coronavirus and have time to add coaching to my busy life. And I’m like, you know what you are right?

Michael Bungay Stanier [16:32]
This is not about adding coaching because if you’re trying to do that, it’s never gonna happen. It is about transforming what you currently do to be more coach-like, so it’s not adding anything that’s just pouring water into a full glass. It’s transforming how you show currently in the work you do currently to be more coach-like, then people go alright Michael, third resistance. Look, I don’t want to be a coach. I am an entrepreneur. I’m a leader. I’m a founder, I’m a CEO. I’ve met coaches, they’re all kind of failed executives or their life coaches, and they’re all touchy-feely or they’re sport sports coaches, which means they shout at me, I don’t want to be a coach. They make me be something that I’m not. I’m like, Oh, we don’t want you to be a coach, you need to be you in the role you’re currently at in your company. We want you to be more coach-like, it is a leadership behavior. It’s not a profession. So now we’re on to the fourth resistance, which is like people go Alright, Michael, but, okay, you’re making this all sound less weird. So I like it.

Michael Bungay Stanier [17:38]
It’s fast. It’s every day to leadership behavior. But I’m not even sure what we’re talking about here. What do you mean by coaching, or being more coach-like because it’s the language we’ve all heard, but there are 1000 definitions for that? So let me give you my simple behavior-based definition and can you stay curious a little bit longer, can you rush to action and then by skipping a little bit more slowly, so this is really specific. There’s nothing weird about this. Can you just stay curious a little bit longer rush to action vice giving a little bit more slowly. So action by still in the mix just a little bit more slowly. Now that like, Okay, this is great, definitely less weird. I mean, if it’s just being curious, I can do that. But then they go, okay, Michael, what’s in it for me? Like I get that this will help my team be more confident and more confident and more self-sufficient and more autonomous. Again, how actually having that happening in my organization that serves the bigger organization, but how’s this going to make me feel better? Because you’re asking me to change my behavior, and that’s hard. I’m like, okay, so if you get to be more coach, like, here’s what will actually happen, you’ll work a little less hard and you’ll have more impact. And if that sounds at least interesting to you, the one you know, less long hours but making more of a difference in the work that you do. Then it’s worth exploring. With this curiosity stuff to see how it plays out for you.

Gene Hammett [19:04]
You know, that reminds me of one of your core principles in here around princely. Coaching is lazy.

Michael Bungay Stanier [19:10]
Yeah, I know. There are three principles be lazy, be curious, be often, and be lazy as often sounds the most provocative. It’s actually not the most radical of those three. It’s like, stop working so hard to try and save the day and save everybody else. That’s not your job. Your job is to enable others to work hard. And it’s whenever we do this, this we’re teaching this stuff people start off by going, I don’t know about lazy Look, I didn’t get where I am today to be by being lazy. And by the end of the experience, you’re like, Oh, I get the lazy I love the lazy I could do with lazier in my life. The more radical the three principles, be lazy, be curious, be often, and actually be often. Because here’s what it says. And this can really revolutionize how people think about this. stuff. The often says every interaction with somebody can be more coach-like whether it’s a formal meeting or an informal get together or team meeting or a text or phone call, or, or a slack communication. Because if you’re just saying being more coach-like is just staying curious a little bit longer, you can do that in any channel. And you can do it asynchronously as you go through this. And that if you show up going power, every interaction I can have with somebody could be just a little bit more curious. That’s when radical change really starts to show up.

Gene Hammett [20:37]
Well, I want to give you a chance to go through one more element from the book because I really liked this and I’ve used this in my own speeches, but the poll of the status quo is very strong. It’s one of the strongest things I’ve seen. It’s just to do what we’ve always done. Why did you include that element into this book on the advice route?

Michael Bungay Stanier [21:00]
Well, I think it just is partly speaking to and just honestly recognizing the challenge at hand. Because, you know, people can get excited by reading the book or excited by this podcasting hear me kind of get kind of rabid about just staying curious a little bit longer. And they’re like, yeah, I’m foreign. I like this adventure. It sounds cool. It sounds important. It sounds like it would make my company different. And my leadership, different team different and we’ll all that is true. But it’s like it takes work to do this. And in the book. In the opening of the Coaching Habit, the first chapter is about to Let me tell you about habits because habits are the building blocks of behavior change, and we talk about the new habit formula and that first book, in this book, we go, Okay, so you need to understand habits because that’s how you set yourself and get in the RX so that you actually start rewiring your brain to change your behavior. But sometimes you need to go a little deeper before you can step into the habit piece.

Michael Bungay Stanier [22:00]
In this book, I talked about the difference between easy change and hard change. So easy change for good if it’s like, you know, you come across something you haven’t done before you have a first go at it, you kind of figure it out, you may be listening to a podcast, watch a YouTube video, read a book, get a teenager to explain it to you, you figure it out, you do it a few more times, you get better at it you master. In some ways, the metaphor is like, it’s like downloading a new app onto your phone, you’re kind of adding a little piece of content to what’s already there. Hard change and we all know how change is when for some reason, even though you read the books and talk to the teenager and watch the video. You still can’t quite figure out how to do this. You know, I got it. I got it in my brain. But how do I actually get this done? So I change the way that I work. And the metaphor here is this is not an app being downloaded. You need a new operating system, you need to rewiring one of them. is aggregation to current you the present version of you. The other hard change is about committing to a future you because this is how you level up as a leader. So you level up as a human being. And status quo kids pulling us back to stick to easy change and then with the hard change just too hard, so don’t bother about it. And to break through the status quo to step into that future, you version a really tapes, kind of tackling the height change piece. And that’s where we get into this. Well, what does it mean to actually take your advice monster?

Gene Hammett [23:39]
Well, I appreciate you being here. I want to ask one more question. And this is not from the book. This is just my own kind of observation. founders and leaders really do love to focus on the external. I asked them about their challenges and they’ll say, well, we need to increase sales we need to increase, get better at marketing or open up new offices raised Capital, it’s all external. But the real issues are going on internal inside them, the anxiety, they feel the pressure they feel, but the same thing is going on with our employees.

Michael Bungay Stanier [24:11]
That’s right.

Gene Hammett [24:12]
The internal issues. So how would you coach someone to find and be more curious about those internal issues going on that is stopping an employee for playing at their optimal level?

Michael Bungay Stanier [24:22]
Yeah, I’ve got a really simple solution to that. It’s a two-word solution. So the simple solution is this. Actually, let me start with a simple framing of it so people see the difference. And the jargony framing is the difference between coaching for performance and coaching for development. coaching for performance is kind of getting stuff done. coaching for development is growing your people who are getting stuff done a more vivid metaphor, coaching, but invention of fire. If you’re a founder or team leader, you’re looking at the firing going, this fire needs to be dealt with it needs to be Go top and it needs to be expanded or needs to be put out or needs to be looked after, you know, banked in some way. That’s coaching for performance dealing with the fire. cooking for development is dealing with the person who has to deal with the fire helping them go, how are you going to do that stuff that’s required. And so often in our organizations, particularly fast-moving companies where like, Who has time for the development stuff, we’ve got so much to get done, focus on the doing of it, the being of it can wait until later. But here’s a simple way, a simple technique that can make conversations on a day to day basis being both about getting stuff done and about growing your people, which is about the internal challenges. We’re talking about Jean and adding the word the phrase two words for you onto the end of questions. So I’ll give you an example.

Michael Bungay Stanier [25:55]
One of the most powerful questions in the coaching habit book. The first one is what’s the real issue. Challenge here for you. The real challenge here for you. If you ask people the short version of that, what’s the challenge here? Do people go? It’s the fire, idiot. That’s the thing. That’s the challenge, obviously. And you’ve told me it’s a challenge. And I know it’s a challenge to deal with the challenge. If I go, what’s the real challenge here? That becomes a more powerful question right away because it doesn’t say, just tell me about the faces. What exactly about fire say, Oh, ah, we don’t have the right word, or Oh, it’s a chemical fire or it’s in the wrong fireplace, so becomes more subtle right away. But if you ask, what’s the real challenge here for you, the spotlight swings from the problem to the person solving the problem. And now it’s like my problem is I’ve never seen a chemical fire or I don’t know how to get the wood or I’m afraid of fire. And it becomes a much richer conversation because I like this is what’s hard for me about dealing with this problem. And when When you do this, you get that growth from a person. Plus you get the problem sorted out. And just to say, show you that this isn’t just, you know, Michael mouthing off.

Michael Bungay Stanier [27:11]
One of our clients, a box of crayons is Microsoft. And about two months ago, maybe a little longer now. I was at the Microsoft sales force down and sales conference down in Las Vegas. And in front of about three and a half 4000 people. I coached the head of sales so even the reports directly to Satya Nadella using pretty much just that question because here’s the thing, particularly with founders and senior people, they love to stay in the high level, the abstract the big picture because that’s their job is to see all of that. So I started coaching this courageous man who’s volunteered to be coached in front of 4000 of his colleagues. Like Okay, so what’s the what’s the real challenge? Hear from you. You go, blah, blah, blah, blah, visionary, big picture stuff like, that’s great. But what’s the real challenge here for you? He’s like, oh, blah, blah, blah, big picture visionary stuff. This is excellent. And I’m excited for you because I can see how excited you are. But what’s the real challenge here for you? And he’s like, oh, ha, blah, blah, blah. And like, I don’t know, but really, what’s the real challenge here for you? And he’s like, I have to change the way I lead because I grew up under Steve Bama, which is a certain style of leadership. And now under Sachin Adela, with a commitment to a growth mindset and moving from a node or organization to a learning organization. I’m actually going to rebuild myself as a leader. And it was an electric moment because a whole room saw this man being vulnerable in a way that they really hadn’t seen before.

Michael Bungay Stanier [28:55]
Pay is like it was completely different from everything. He has just been talking about everything. Before was like strategy, and you know, big picture and driving sales and clients and all of that external stuff that we were talking about, and just had that willingness, I had to go look, what’s the real challenge here for you, for you know, for you, again, for you. And that was what in five minutes, changed the conversation radically and changed him like he is a different man now by having had that conversation with me.

Gene Hammett [29:32]
And I’m going to point out the power of questions. It wasn’t advice you gave him. It wasn’t about?

Michael Bungay Stanier [29:38]
What am I gonna do? What am I going to tell the head of sales of Microsoft? mean? What can I possibly give him? That would be useless, useful advice, I got nothing.

Gene Hammett [29:48]
I’m sure you have some things but just the power of those questions and allowed him to see for himself that he’s got to make a change under this new leadership. And that’s the power That we’re talking about the Yankees. So, Michael, thank you for being here on the show, Growth Think Tank. I appreciate you for sharing your wisdom.

Michael Bungay Stanier [30:09]
Clean. It’s been a real pleasure. Thank you. You made it very easy for me.

Gene Hammett [30:13]
Wow, I love what I do because I get to read a book like the advanced trap and I get to ask questions of the authors. I get to bring this to you of value, because I know you, as a leader know that you want to effect change, you want to evolve as a leader, you want to be a more effective leader. And these interviews are exactly the tools I use to do that on the front end. If you want deeper work if you want one on one conversations, I’m a coach. I specialize in working with founders leaders and their teams that are growing fast. And if that’s you, you have questions about your defining moments of growth. Make sure you reach out to me, [email protected]. No, take this episode and share it with a friend. But as always, we will Courage. We’ll see you next time.

Disclaimer: This transcript was created using YouTube’s translator tool and that may mean that some of the words, grammar, and typos come from a misinterpretation of the video.


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